We beat the discussion "Should You lie about your age" to death

Networking especially, it's the best and most productive method, and it usually results in a much better paying job and a better fit. I also agree that we need to find angles and use that to your advantage. I agree too that we need to be patient, and work much smarter than ever before in our job search. Randy, you also made an excellent suggestion that people should find a company where they really "want" to work and can see themselves in that role/company. If anything, they may call you later when things turn around, where if you never talked or contacted them, they wouldn't know you at all.

Use your age, not literally talk about it in the interview, but as a means to draw upon your experience in the work force in general. You know what works, doesn't work, and what things really make a difference in a company and/or position. Make good suggestions, use examples, show them you're not just another "book smart" young whipper-snapper. Brag modestly a little, especially when they ask you about your accomplishments or what you are proud of etc. Bring any documentation of your past accomplishments, letters of recommendations, past evaluations. Seeing is believing, telling is not as powerful. They want to see you as positive, confident and genuinely interested, not desparate and/or just trying to get "a" job. I know our choices are limited, and we all need a paycheck to survive, but if you don't seem genuine, then they will worry you are going to run off when things do get better. Besides, they are already thinking that way before you applied.

I just had an interview Wednesday with a major worldwide company. I flat out told the inteveiwer, who would be my direct boss, "I want this job", and I told her why. I really knew I deep down I would love that job and be an excellent fit for it. Don't wait for them to ask you, "why do you want to work for us". Be aggressive, in the right measure, not over confident or arrogant. By the way, she was impressed and told me she liked my attitude and drive, it shows I am sincerely interested and confident in the right way. I still have another interview to go through, but at least I'm still in the running.

Like Randy said, you need to show, or make them see how you can bring/add value to their company. And, I also think they need to see that you have the right chemistry to fit into their organization, so don't rule that out. You can be all that and then some, but if you can't get them to see you as fit on the personal side, it won't happen. I think Randy will agree with me on that too. Now, unless you are a number cruncher, and will be isolated in a cubical so to speak, then maybe personality is not that important. But, if you have to interact with people on a daily basis and can't effectively communicate and get along, then you will be seen as a future problem.

I have been laid off twice in 1 1/2 yrs. The first time it took me 7 months to find a job, and now this time I'm going on my fourth month, BUT I have a job offer already and am still waiting to hear back from four other companies for a second interview. I feel extremely blessed to have such activity. I admit, all but one of the jobs are paying much much less than what I was previously making, but I am still grateful. You can't let "pride" stand in your way.

I wish everyone good fortune and I even though I am unemployed, I still feel bad about those who are in danger, or have already, loss their homes etc. For what it's worth, You're not alone.

Last thing....sincerely PRAY. If anything, it may help you find comfort.

Hey, I'm three months away from getting my shopping cart and strolling down the street! Surpisingly, I'm not stressing out because I am staying positive and active knowing I will find work.

"Desired Salary" when the online application mandates you enter a number,

the past salary thing is also one of those that bother me. If you have updated your qualifications/education, then it may be irrevalent as to how much you made at your last position. But also, what if your last position included a bonus or profit sharing that fluctuated or worse, a profit sharing that never materialized? (Say you get laid off just before annual dispersment of it.) If you enter total potential compensation you had agreed to work for in the past and they ask prior employer, the employer's respondant may not include the overall/total potential compensation package valuation.

Another one of those questions that get me is "Have you EVER recieved or have been convicted of a Felony or Misdemeanor citation?"..Come on, Seriously! A misdemeanor? Who hasn't gotten a traffic citation (which is a misdemeanor)? Ok, if the position is a truck driver/delivery etc, then it makes sense. At least break out the Felony question from the Misdemeanor question and allow an explanation box.

Example: My lawnmower died a few summers back and while mower was in shop I got a ticket from the city on July 2nd because my grass was 9" tall (mind you -no weeds in grass, just luscious St Augustine) Why? It was just before Fourth of July Parade was to go down my street. Yes, I did not cut my grass for almost three weeks in June and grass was more like 5", with some spots around 9", but I did maintain edging and was able cut the grass in time for the parade, but Judge said "Nope, It was already too tall (>8") when you got ticket". So I have a misdemeanor on my record. Total B.S. of a law if you ask me. So now if I don't answer yes to such a narrow question, I face termination for lying on application, and if I answer yes, then I might get looked over since there is no separation of Felony from Misdemeanor or ability to explain either.

I also recently came across this 'salary desired' question on an online application. I usually enter what base dollar salary or hourly figure it will take to get me interested in the position, but have also entered the $1.00 in the past. I don't see this as a fair question especially if the application already has prior compensation information.

Though in the interviewers defense, one interviewer recently confessed at an initial phone interveiw that they had a qualified candidate whom they never asked how much he wanted until they got to the second in person interview and the candidate replied $120K/yr. While some persons could make that much $ in a smilar position, It was at least double, if not triple, the realistic mean amount for the type of job and experience.

Having some database experience and knowledge makes me wonder how short sighted the designer of the application was and why things like these I shared here and illegal questions regarding birthdate/age & veteran status questions are in these.

These type of questions (well, just the legal ones) should only be presented as a secondary level application query to a "qualified candidate."

As far as salary, past or future, the inclusion of a checkboxes or dropdowns to add "other financial compensation" such as bonus or profit sharing valuations would be well received.

I really wonder how many people who design these online applications have actual old school paper application, resume and interview experience?

jump in with both feet to get a job done

Agreed. The point is, age discrimination is alive and well, and probably always has been. I find it pathetic when even the 50+ crowd starts to go down the entitlement pathway. Seriously? We are the last of the greatest generation. Remember? We’re the ones who pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, roll up our sleeves and jump in with both feet to get a job done.

I’m not saying people aren’t unemployed due to a very lousy market and age and other discrimination. I know, I was completely out of work for two years. I have been fortunate in that I have work now, but it’s a grant-funded position so who knows when this ride will end? We as humans must have value in our lives. Being broke is one thing, but having no focus or purpose leads to despondency and we begin to die. Broke is a temporary condition, but depression starts to scar us, eventually permanently.

It is crucial to find a cause; something you can contribute your time to.After all, you are in control of your time, even if you have no money to control. If you ever want to see how much worse things could be, go serve at a soup kitchen sometime. Often you will find people who have literally lost everything. Another option is to read to children. Better yet, just hang out with some third-graders for a couple hours sometime; they will amaze you and remind you to find peace in the simple things. They will also surprise you with their questions and keep you on your toes.

Find a purpose. Even at near retirement age, it is still possible to find new direction in life. Also, prioritize. Keep the most important things, the most important things. It’s easy to forget just what is important in life. If you want to gain a better perspective on that, go to a nursing home or hospice, it will make you evaluate what to be thankful for.

burden shifting framework did not apply to the ADEA

We are told the petition is doing very well, but we are 1,000 away from being considered by the White House!! So I am sure you can understand how much we appreciate your help! ;) Joan

Please find included here some info regarding the court ruling & the companies that backed it ! is public record

With Justice Clarence Thomas writing for the majority, joined by Chief Justice John G. Roberts & Justices Antonin G. Scalia & Anthony M. Kennedy& Samuel A. Alito, the Court reasoned from the ADEA's plain text and Congressional intent that the Title VII burden shifting framework did not apply to the ADEA.

Gross v. FBL, this Supreme Court’s 2009 decision was a first step in nullify the 1967 EEO Act protecting workers 40 and older against age discrimination in the work place.

The Supreme Court “invented a new standard that places an extraordinarily high burden to prove age discrimination and radically undermines older workers ability to hold employers accountable.

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Thank you corporate America

Thank you corporate America. This whole thing is beginning to sound like Congress. Sometimes talking or writing about things makes one feel better. Most of my "early morning" posts are those pf a woman who can't sleep or eat....just wondering how long until this whole country breaks down.

But look at the protests....in Washington, around the country. People are mad and they don't want to take it anymore. Perhaps nothing can be accomplished by one petition....but..the strength is in numbers.

Once again, a petition will do nothing, but, it will get people to thinking and investigating. Michael Jackson trial...the family bitched and moaned about Michael's death....it got attention. Now, that's the Jackson family and they are famous...we are not so we use numbers.

I've already spoken to my Congressman, Rep and others about age problems. Don't think of me or of the people of our district. Think of the millions of baby boomers who are going to retire early because no one will hire "the elderly" as we are sometimes called. We "elderly retirees are going to start businesses, take on contract work but we are still going to collect on the money YOU ARE MAKING FOR US THIS VERY MINUTE. I don't know anyone who is eager to get out there and prove themselves or perhaps start a new career path at 61 like I am, but, I am willing to give it my best and have already set the wheels in motion to contract, contract, contract the crap outta the engineering world starting in 2012. Oh I'll still collect SS, I'll just have to be careful not to go over the allotted amount, then the youngins' can take over and support me.

PS....I just rode a horse none of the younger crowd could ride...called him dangerous. His rider, a younger teenager, bought him and was afraid of him. She looked to me to get him ridable again...she's 17, I'm 61 and she needed me (seasoned horseman here and a damn good one).

Knowledge, experience, integrity, quality, "one-time right"

Well said David and I totally agree. To those of us Boomers, the word entitlement was never used because our generation learned very early that we had to earn our own way in this world.

We didn't expect to be given anything, and we were taught to both respect and week-out those with experience and wisdom to help us work our way up. I've heard too many times in my adult life (and even used the term to describe myself) that I have a "degree in the school of hard knocks". It's something to be proud of, because it is a testament to our core values of hard work and knowledge producing results.

We all fully understand that the epitome of being a "seasoned" professional is working hard to earn respect from proving yourself over time. That builds trust and with trust, YOU (WE) have now become those with the experience and wisdom to pass along to the next generation.

Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, my take is that all of these amazing qualities passed down from generation to generation were thrown out the window and corporate greed took over. Knowledge, experience, integrity, quality, "one-time right", and being "the best" were all replaced with simply being "the richest".

I think the biggest stumbling block for many of us is that in our "dream of dreams", most of us continue to have the expectation that most companies out there are looking for "our" core values, when the truth is most likely the opposite. It is both sad and frustrating, but unfortunately most often very true.

As David pointed out, I totally agree that it is despicable what this country has become. I truly worry about the future for my adult children, for my new granddaughter born yesterday, and for all the future generations in this country.

Now when I say "God Bless America", I think mostly about the America of the past, for I am uncertain that the America of the present has earned the right to be blessed for much of anything.

My friends, hopefully enough of our strong old-fashioned values will rub off on this generation so that the American dream (OUR American dream!) can live on long after we are all gone. We can all only hope and pray for the best.

And yes, I said PRAY! If I have offended anyone here by saying that, you should leave this discussion right now because I for one am SO sick of being told that I have to be "politically correct" and "be sensitive" to everyone, that I could just PUKE! That's not the America I grew up in!

Does it pay off to have your resume written by a professional resume writer?

Well, I do have a vested interest in this discussion, since I have my own resume business. And I do get asked this a lot, but it's a good question.

My answer: It does pay, and it's a good investment. Reasons why:

Objectivity; many don't see their skills and accomplishments and/or are uncomfortable about talking about them. A good resume professional knows what to ask to bring out these accomplishments.

Skill: A good resume is a complex marketing tool of good graphic design and layout, and writing. Resume writers are proficient in those areas, as well as related fields such as editing, proofreading, and typography. We also possess very strong language skills (although your command of English is quite high). Most also have access to a wide range of resources, such as key words in your area of expertise.

Knowledge base: We know more than resumes; we can also help with personal branding. Many have background as career counselors or corporate recruiters.

We can also assist in the job search process. This includes cover letters and effective job search strategies, including social media such as LinkedIn and Facebook.

Many writers, such as myself, can offer a wide range of pricing options to help the client, including resume evaluations.

If you do use a resume professional, I would recommend going through sites such as the National Resume Writers Association, CDI or Professional Association of Resume Writers and Career Coaches, just to name a few. Not all the ones listed are certified (I'm a member of NRWA but not certified), but all adhere to their association's standards of conduct and professionalism.

position after the first interview due to age discrimination?

And thanks to the EEO, I have spent nearly all my adult life having to fight for jobs against quotas, etc, because you see, I’m a white Anglo-Saxon middle-aged male (well, not anymore at 50). Perhaps even a bit bitter about it, Joan. This thing you seem to think is so wonderful has cost me plenty. No one is supposed to be discriminated against, ever. If it were actually true in practice, we wouldn’t have to fight for equality and we certainly wouldn’t need EEO or any other such legislation. We are regulated to death in this country! Soon, you will not be allowed to die, except on certain days of the month, or your family will have to pay a fine.

Seriously, everyone has the same opportunities. It shouldn’t matter the color of your skin, gender, or age, and we shouldn’t have to fight against quotas either! We need less government interference, not more. We should all be allowed to compete fairly and on an even playing field. The field is not leveled by legislation that protects certain groups and not everyone else. Everyone was protected in the very beginning of this country. Along the way, we have had to make a few adjustments until we changed our way of thinking.

At this point, we don’t need more laws to protect each little individual group. After all, we are all supposed to be Americans. I know I was born here and so were my parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents. We don’t call ourselves German Americans, or Welsh Americans, or French Americans, or Old Americans, or Young Americans, or Girl Americans, or Boy Americans, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

I don’t look to the government to provide a single thing for me. Not a job, not a paycheck, not food. Nobody owes me anything and if I can’t get a decent job because I am “too old” it’s up to me to create something to pay my bills and provide for my family. More importantly, it’s up to me to prioritize my life to make sure I’m not being wasteful. It’s pathetic to see so many in this country on food stamps or public health care who walk into the doctor’s office with a $200 cell phone, a $300 manicure, and highlights in their hair!

Then, to top it off, they have the audacity to act like they are “owed” everything and everyone is expected to kowtow around them and cater to their whims! It’s despicable what this country has become in so many ways. You want new laws? How about limits on benefits? How about just requirements to continue to receive benefits? Maybe then, those who are really trying would get the extensions they deserve and the rest might have to buck-up and do something instead of living on the dole.

Now, I will step down off the political soapbox and let someone else rant. Thank you for your time. And Don, I hope you’re still here, too.

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